On the disquiet of listening to hatred
Jun. 24th, 2004 12:56 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
toscas_kissHad a lovely, lovely evening with ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
rivier, swilling back the champers and masticating on nachos and a variety of subjects. These covered the tried and trite, i.e. the ubercuteness of the Harper, and Ray #1 vs Ray #2 (her in the first corner, me in the second), to the not necessarily more serious topics of the probability of the couple at the table to the right of us being a pro and his john (well, it was a Civil Service bar and you should have seen the way the old guy was fawning over the cute young stud), and the sad disintegration of (the now apparently deleted from Journalfen) fandomwank from generally amusing Mocker of Holy Cows to hate-spattered forum seemingly employed mostly by those seeking an alternative to writing Mary-Sue fic (please note the 'mostly' - then again, those whom that remark is aimed at are probably too stupid to understand the meaning of the word 'qualifier').
Now I seldom, if ever, stick my neck out on matters of fandom opinion on the web - I don't personally think you can change anyone's mind with massive rants about the correctness of your viewpoint. And when it comes to flamewars in fanfiction, I find it all rather bewildering and more than a little ridiculous, especially when the participants are no longer in their teens and really should know better. It's one thing to be passionate about a subject, and quite another to be so obsessive you hound someone because they have a different opinion to you, or even worse, because you've heard something bad about them and blindly believe it without ever having come in personal/email contact with them.
It raises an interesting question for me - when does a discussion, or an attitude, or a community, turn into a hate-mob? Recently, the rather unpleasantly named![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
fanfic_hate went from randomly naming their most hated fanfics to methodically addressing fandoms. And this is mostly done anonymously. Am I the only person who finds this disturbing? I feel like I'm standing in the archway to the courtyard, waiting for the mob to start throwing books onto the pyre.
The anonymity aspect is particularly dubious in my opinion. What is so wrong to publicly admitting you loathe a particular piece of fanfiction? So as not to be called a hypocrite, here then are several well-thought-of HP fanfictions that, each for different reasons, I dislike greatly:
Irresistible Poison by Rhysenn
Malfoy, P.I. by Nancy
Boat of a Million Years by Starkiller
It doesn't mean they're 'crap' or 'over-rated' or 'romantic drivel' or whatever other derisive terms can be thought of. Just that for various reasons I personally didn't like them; didn't agree with the characterisation or plot devices or style or atmosphere or ending or whatever.
People are always quoting Voltaire's old saw; "I may not believe in what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." However, he also said; "If you try something once, you're experimenting. More than once and you're a pervert."
In this instance, perhaps that should be "More than once, and you'll be perverted." To rant about something occasionally, yes, we all do that and I think it's mentally healthy to vent. But to pour continuous hatred and scorn on a work or a person? (and don't tell me it won't eventually spiral out onto the authors - I think fandomwank was proof enough of that)
I don't believe this to be a happy or healthy thing - mentally or spiritually - for either those who receive the venom, or those who spew it.
I don't expect to have changed your mind with this particular expression of my own viewpoint, however I do thank you for the courtesy of reading it.
rivier, swilling back the champers and masticating on nachos and a variety of subjects. These covered the tried and trite, i.e. the ubercuteness of the Harper, and Ray #1 vs Ray #2 (her in the first corner, me in the second), to the not necessarily more serious topics of the probability of the couple at the table to the right of us being a pro and his john (well, it was a Civil Service bar and you should have seen the way the old guy was fawning over the cute young stud), and the sad disintegration of (the now apparently deleted from Journalfen) fandomwank from generally amusing Mocker of Holy Cows to hate-spattered forum seemingly employed mostly by those seeking an alternative to writing Mary-Sue fic (please note the 'mostly' - then again, those whom that remark is aimed at are probably too stupid to understand the meaning of the word 'qualifier'). Now I seldom, if ever, stick my neck out on matters of fandom opinion on the web - I don't personally think you can change anyone's mind with massive rants about the correctness of your viewpoint. And when it comes to flamewars in fanfiction, I find it all rather bewildering and more than a little ridiculous, especially when the participants are no longer in their teens and really should know better. It's one thing to be passionate about a subject, and quite another to be so obsessive you hound someone because they have a different opinion to you, or even worse, because you've heard something bad about them and blindly believe it without ever having come in personal/email contact with them.
It raises an interesting question for me - when does a discussion, or an attitude, or a community, turn into a hate-mob? Recently, the rather unpleasantly named
fanfic_hate went from randomly naming their most hated fanfics to methodically addressing fandoms. And this is mostly done anonymously. Am I the only person who finds this disturbing? I feel like I'm standing in the archway to the courtyard, waiting for the mob to start throwing books onto the pyre. The anonymity aspect is particularly dubious in my opinion. What is so wrong to publicly admitting you loathe a particular piece of fanfiction? So as not to be called a hypocrite, here then are several well-thought-of HP fanfictions that, each for different reasons, I dislike greatly:
Irresistible Poison by Rhysenn
Malfoy, P.I. by Nancy
Boat of a Million Years by Starkiller
It doesn't mean they're 'crap' or 'over-rated' or 'romantic drivel' or whatever other derisive terms can be thought of. Just that for various reasons I personally didn't like them; didn't agree with the characterisation or plot devices or style or atmosphere or ending or whatever.
People are always quoting Voltaire's old saw; "I may not believe in what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." However, he also said; "If you try something once, you're experimenting. More than once and you're a pervert."
In this instance, perhaps that should be "More than once, and you'll be perverted." To rant about something occasionally, yes, we all do that and I think it's mentally healthy to vent. But to pour continuous hatred and scorn on a work or a person? (and don't tell me it won't eventually spiral out onto the authors - I think fandomwank was proof enough of that)
I don't believe this to be a happy or healthy thing - mentally or spiritually - for either those who receive the venom, or those who spew it.
I don't expect to have changed your mind with this particular expression of my own viewpoint, however I do thank you for the courtesy of reading it.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2004-06-23 05:35 pm (UTC)I really do agree completely with what you're saying here. Spot on babe. If I had half an ounce of moral scruple, in tribute to your spot-on-ness, I'd hold off writing that lovely AU DROM pastiche.
But ahh, the thought of Harper in the bubble-bath singing along to 'Kiss'...
Can't! Resist!
(no subject)
Date: 2004-06-24 02:26 am (UTC)That was a great winebar, I really liked it. A zillion times better than the pub I was going to take you to. We shall definitely have to go there again, because since leaving Auckland there has been a dearth of good winebars in my life.
Thank you. (you do realise a scruple is a measurement too?) [grin]
Harper. Bubblebath. Eep. [mind fritzes]
(no subject)
Date: 2004-06-24 06:51 am (UTC)Personally, I find it boring, childish and lame. If you need to make a stand, make it. I doubt any of the well-known authors get their panties tied in a knot over it - they have their fanbase.
As for anonymously pouring hate over an entire fandom...I think the same applies. Telling a large group of people "YOU SUCK!" without having to fear any ramifications is as equally a cheap thrill as anonymously ranting about an author.
My previous opinion applies to the second case as well.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-06-25 01:50 am (UTC)Yep, I totally agree with that. If you won't say something openly or to someone's face (so to speak!) then just
shut the fuck updon't say anything at all.One thing that especially annoys me is that most of it is "Oh this story sux and is overrated and I HATE it". Yeah OK, you're entitled to your opinion and I don't have a problem with that, but you could at least provide a reasonable explanation for it, or you're just another sheep bleating the Ihate mantra.